Hi
I am looking for a Zagato Double Bubble to restore ,
I am sure my budget will only get me a dented and rusty car ,
So can someone please send me photos of a Double Bouble pulled apart and being restored .
Things I would be interested in would be fixing the rust ,
how the original metal is attached to the aluminum panels ,
what alloy the aluminum panels are and best way to weld new repair pieces to the original alloy panels.
if the steel frame reacts to the alloy panels and "rusts" the alloy panels
( not really rust but the materials react badly to each other)
How the windshield is put in , I hear its not a normal way
If I get some photos etc then I will not be as scared to take on a rusty / dented project,
knowing that others have already done it
Thank you for your help
Dave
anyone ????
Hi,
I can tell you all about a 750gt zagato.
The best advice i can give you when it is your first zagto, never buy a car with all parts in boxes.
Always buy a "complete" car that is still mounted together.
This gives you the chance to find out how the cars is exactly made.
If you are an experienced Abarth engineer, like Guy, then it is no problem to buy a car in boxes.
But if it is your first one, don't ever buy a car like that! It will finally become a problem instead of something nice.
If you do buy a rusty car that is worth restoring, be prepared that it will cost a lot of money to restore the car.
Even if you do a lot of work yourself. You need parts, sometimes very hard to find or exepensive.
Also there will be certain difficult jobs that a professional should do, you will need money for that too!
I cannot tell you what to do, but concider saving some more money and buy a better car then you describe.
Best regards, Vincent.
Many people buy cars with the idea you have. Most decide it is hopeless and end up selling the car. Unless you already know or want to take training in alloy bodywork you probably shouldn't buy it.
You're better off getting a car that is already nice, even if it's not your dream car.
Jim
I restored one. I do not recommend it. The body is very difficult to do. There is a real difficulty getting the alloy body and the steel pan together and not rusting.
If you are ready for this and love these cars i would say find the best car you can afford. By best I mean the most complete. The pieces are nearly impossible to find. Not the motor and all of that but the little things that you would not think of. There are nice little cover plates and hammered aluminum plates to cover the door seals. These things are hand made by the factory and everyone is different. The bodies are made of aluminum as they say but the real shape is made of body filler. I think at the factory they got the cars pretty good with hammers and then filled the rest. Be prepared to spend many hours getting the body straight and making all of the missing pieces. There are many many cars to view on line that people have done all sorts of interesting things to. I would recommend looking at early pictures from races in the sixties. Avoid looking at current restorations. I think restoring one of these cars can be a real joy. I think it is like any car though do not expect to make a profit. Do it because you love it. Plan to spend many hours on it.
Hi
thanks for your advise,
First is to find a reasonable priced one, Do you know of any ?
I can fix most anything ,
I have time and friends that do high dollar restorations that can point me in the right direction,
I am more into the race car look, it will have disc brakes and a A112 motor if I do not get an original with the car,
I am not trying to make a concours car which takes much more time and money to find all the small original bits ,
Anyway first I need to buy something to start on
Dave
Dear Dave,
A 750gt Zagato should only be restored to the original condition.
If you want to race a car, buy an other model.
Besides a double bubble deserves an original restoration, history wise and also the car looks best that way, you will have more fun racing a 850tc or 1000tc. It will drive better and if you have an accident, bodywork will be much easier and cheaper to replace.
Best regards, Vincent.
Hi Dave. I totally agree with what has been said. My two cents worth...
I lusted after an alloy bodied Abarth for many years (since birth I think) and eventually bought a Record Monza that needed body restoration, but was pretty complete, except for the engine which came disassembled. It even had the correct alloy bumperettes which are often missing. But.... There was bad corrosion where the aluminum meets the 600 steel body. I kept it for several years, pondering how to restore it. I had a knowledgable restorer look at it (he does world class restorations to Mercedes Gullwings, Ferraris and other exotics) and he said the body restoration would cost around $40,000 and that was about 10 years ago. I had a good 600 shell that I was going to use, and had planned to remove the complete aluminum RM shell and transfer it over. The steel in the RM was REALLY bad from the galvanic reaction/corrosion.
In the end, I gave up. I had (and still have them) 5 other cars to work on. I just couldn't see spending $40K just in body work, and I did not want to learn the very specialized work needed to work with the aluminum body and to have to buy all the special tools. And it would have taken up a lot of garage space as well as time and patience.
I absolutely love the Double Bubble, Record Monza and all of the other alloy bodied Abarths. If you want one, I agree that you should only buy one in the best condition you can find, and the most complete you can find. And, I would own only this car to work on so that you can focus your total time, energy and money on it. I also agree that you should only restore it to original condition. These cars are too historically important now.
I have been enjoying working on an 850TC replica for several years (at least). I have still wanted a genuine Abarth since I sold my Record Monza, and I just bought a Fiat Abarth 1300/124 to restore. It's not as exotic as a Double Bubble or other alloy bodied Abarth, but it is still an Abarth, with many changes from a stock 850. The main reason I bought one, is that the body is steel and it is very easy to work on compared to aluminum. Plus, many parts are far easier to find, and you can even use a stock 850 body to salvage sheet metal from.
Someone on this forum (in California) recently had a Record Monza for sale. It looked to be in pretty decent shape overall. I think he was asking $40 - $50,000 for it. Not bad when you consider how much money you dump into one that needs a lot of body work and has a lot of missing or damaged parts.
Gil
Thanks for your advise which I will probably ignore :)
I do not have all the money at one time to buy a nice Double Bubble or Record Monza ,
So I will need to buy something rusty or dented and work from there, ,
I can do some of the work , trade my friends for other work, but it will get done and done right,
As far as concours , I am not interested , I will not do anything that cannot be put back to stock ,
but disc brakes are needed , and a 1050cc A112 motor is simple and good HP.
If I get an Abarth motor , then I can rebuild it , but not having one does not bother me,
PLEASE tell me of any "bad" Double bubbles ir Record Monza ,
I am up for a challange and I have lots of extra time
Thanks for your help
Dave
Hi Dave,
I have a 1960 that has been outside for many years. I would be happy to send pictures if you are still interested.
Steve
Hi...I sent you a PM
dave
hi everyone, just walked out of the body shop a few minutes ago, at 9:30 pm where they are finalizing some last details on my 1000 (sorry not 750), and yes it is a long and costly process to give all this alloy its original shape after 50 years of which a few where spent racing. but soon it will be on the road, as dave's with a nice little A112, prepped, as , of course the TC has disappeared. but at least it will drive and eventually race again.
Beautiful car and a great color!
So you mean to say it is a Fiat Abarth 1000? What year is it?
Jim
it is a 61 record monza (seems to be a beccaris). no front radiator, no plexi over lights, original color...
In Abarth--the Man and the Machines there are photos of cars that look exactly like yours with captions calling them Fiat Abarth 1000's.
I gather the cars were available with 850cc pushrod engines in three states of tune or a 1000cc twincam motor.
That book seems to say that the F-A 1000 was introduced at the Turin Motor show on 3 November 1960, by which time the bodies were no longer being built by Zagato, and, as you say, were being built by Corna, Beccaris, and Sibona - Basano.
So I believe your car is technically not a Record Monza (which was a 750cc twincam car), although most people would recognize the name and be able to picture the car in their minds with that name.
Is there a chassis build plate on the car or a serial number stamped somewhere?
Jim
dear jim,
you are absolutely right; technically it is not called a RM...and it is exactly as the car pictured on page 126 of the Cosentino ABARTH GRAPHIC CAR GUIDE, i would think, after going through all litterature available, that not to many of his shape (upright lights, no radiator) have been produced. i know more or less the cars history (SWITZERLAND IS A SMALL COUNTRY) , it seems that pete ettmueller collected it late 1960 in italy at the factory and drove it back to switzerland, he told me, it was quite refreshing to drive with open windows to hear the nice sound... someone unfortunately stole the ID plate (as souvenir?) and to make room for exhaust cut out the metalsheet, so i am still doing research to have the "real" chassis number. i'd rather have no chassis plate than a fake one...:-)
looking forward to get news...
peter
Peter,
I am sure you know...but there may be a chalk number on the inside of the door skins and under the dash.This may have a clue to your chassis number ?
I visisted last month a Zagato DB that i sold to Australia.It has a couple of interesting repairs on it,
1 twin radiator sections in the front
2 a repair for a race fuel filler.
Also interestingly some red 'metallic' paint was found under some body seal.'Old' red metallic paint.Does anyone know as a fact that it came in this color ?
Grant Gauld
Ps yes it DID cost a fortune to have the body prepared.
Quote from: grant gauld on June 22, 2008, 05:14:37 PM
Peter,
I am sure you know...but there may be a chalk number on the inside of the door skins and under the dash.This may have a clue to your chassis number ?
The hand-written number on the backs of the interior trim panels/etc. is
not the actual chassis number. It is the identification number given to it by the coachbuilder to make sure all of the trim bits go with the car during assembly.
On rare occasion this number
will match the last digits of the chassis number, but that is by sheer coincidence. (If it
does match, go buy yourself a lottery ticket, because you're damn lucky! LOL).
Though the muffler panel sheetmetal is gone, if the vertical front firewall sheetmetal is still there,
this is where you'll find the original Fiat chassis number stamping - it is to the left of the engine (exhaust side), just like on a regular Fiat 600D chassis. Look to the left of the hole where the throttle cable comes through the firewall.
-JS.
Doesn't your registration or ownership paperwork have a number?
The 1964 850TC replica I bought from Germany had a booklet that had the chassis, motor, and all the previous owners listed
Or do you not trust it to be correct?
Jim
Jeff,
I never said it was the chassis number written on the trim pieces ??.I said it was a 'clue'.When researching a cars history,all 'clues' help.
I once saw an Abarth with papers of original sale that noted the trim number amongst a whole lot of other specific information.
Grant
Quote from: grant gauld on June 22, 2008, 11:49:34 PM
Jeff,
I never said it was the chassis number written on the trim pieces ??.I said it was a 'clue'.When researching a cars history,all 'clues' help.
Yes, I understand, but...
Quote from: grant gauld on June 22, 2008, 11:49:34 PM
I once saw an Abarth with papers of original sale that noted the trim number amongst a whole lot of other specific information.
There can be more than one car over a run of similar-bodied cars produced by a coachbuilder that has that same "trim number" on it. Let's say coachbuilder "X" makes a first batch of cars of a certain body type. Then a second batch a little later. Then a third batch another year or two later.
From what I've learned, sequential coachbuilder ID numbering over an entire series run wasn't always the norm, so a car from the first batch might have the handwritten ID number of "32" on its' trim items, and another similar-bodied car from the third batch (made 1 or more years later ) might coincidentally have that same "32" ID number used on its' trim items.
Most of this info isn't really related to the actual chassis number, except for being a nice addition to the owners' "personal history" file on the car. ;)
The original Fiat 600D chassis number
is the chassis number being asked for (and can often help verify the year of the car), which is why I mentioned it.
-JS.
another little info about model names...check the FIA homologation of the 1000 bialbero.
Notice that it states "Licenza Zagato" for the coachbuilder.
-JS.
and notice that it says coupe record monza...
maybe an answer for jim; no problem about trusting anyone here. it is not like with a 850 where you take that 600 shell etc. you know the story. i wish the guy good look to try to fake for instance the system of windscreen and rearwindow frames and to replicate 1:1...
paperworks: its lost but can be retrieved via official files from customs and registration office, not as easy as in italy for instance....
peter.